Comments on: Or the non-Catholic Christian Protestant. Why refute the idea of purgatory, When? http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/ Books, Magazines, and Audio, and Video Resources for Catholics Thu, 24 May 2012 00:30:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: FromFarAway http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-12749 FromFarAway Fri, 15 May 2009 09:48:24 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-12749 A Fictional Dialogue on Purgatory Paul the Presbyterian: Hey Dante! What is this nonsense about purgatory [spoken with a grimace] that you Catholics teach? Haven't you read that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor 5:8)? Dante the Catholic: First of all, you're misreading that verse. Paul is saying only that he would rather be present with God in spirit than here in his body. Secondly, your interpretation wouldn't apply to those who are damned to hell, since they are not "with the Lord." Thirdly, why would you assume that to be in purgatory is to not be with God? Paul: Well, I'm impressed. But still, you can't show me a single verse in the Bible which refers to a state in the afterlife other than heaven or hell. Dante: Really? I hate to contradict you [smiles], but what about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31)? This is the Hebrew Sheol (Greek, Hades) since it includes both good and bad men. Heaven can't have sinners in it (Rev 21:27) and hell wouldn't have saved persons in it. Paul: Ah, but this is just a parable. You can't construct a doctrine out of a story! You'll have to do better than that. Dante: I disagree. Jesus wouldn't tell a falsehood about spiritual matters, even within a parable. This would be misleading. Besides, we're told that Christ preached to (apparently damned) "spirits in prison" after His death (1 Pet 3:19-20) and took the righteous dead with Him to heaven (Eph 4:8-10). This indicates a divided Sheol or Hades, with the righteous and the wicked: a third place or state. Paul: Well . . . alright, you got me on that one. But no one could go to heaven until after Jesus' Resurrection, and then there were only two destinations after death. Dante: No: Elijah went straight to heaven (2 Ki 2:11), and most Christians believe the same about Enoch (Gen 5:24). So there were two possibilities for the righteous then: Sheol or heaven, just as there are two today: purgatory or heaven, as Jesus strongly hints (Mt 5:25-26, Lk 12:58-59). Paul: Okay, but what other verse can you come up with? Dante: Well, Paul accepts prayers for the dead, which presupposes a purgatory, where dead men can still be assisted. Paul: Come on! Now you're really off the deep end. Where? Dante: In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul refers to people being "baptized for the dead." And he appears to pray for a dead man, Onesiphorus, in 2 Timothy 1:16-18. Paul: What do you think he means by "baptisms for the dead?" Dante: We think he is referring to acts of penance and prayers for the dead. "Baptism" is often a metaphor for suffering (Mk 10:38-39, Lk 3:16, 12:50), and Paul seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind - a very similar verse which explicitly teaches the propriety of prayers for the dead. Paul: But that's in the Apocrypha. We don't accept that. Dante: I know, but if Paul is indeed referring to it, that's beside the point, and you still have to interpret Paul somehow. But there's more: Jesus speaks of sins being forgiven in the "world to come" (Mt 12:32), and three levels of judgment (Mt 5:22). These must be references to purgatory. Scripture oftens mentions a "fire" and a purging, cleansing process by which we become holy (Ex 19:18, Is 4:4, 6:7, Mal 3:1-4, 2 Cor 7:1, 1 Thess 4:3,7, 1 Jn 3:2-3, Heb 12:29). Paul: But why would God want to torment us like that? What's the point? Why wouldn't He just forgive us and be done with it, since Jesus already bore all our penalties (Is 53:4-6)? Dante: God is holy and perfect as well as loving, and this process is simply the way we must enter into His presence. Besides, it's much more merciful to allow people to be purged of their remaining sins after death as a prelude to heaven, than to condemn them to hell. Whatever the reason, God has revealed purgatory to us in the Bible. Paul talks about the "judgment seat of Christ" (1 Cor 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10), where our works will be "tested," after which some will be saved "only as through fire." In all essentials, this is precisely what Catholics mean by purgatory. Don't you believe in the "judgment seat of Christ," and that holiness is required to see God (Heb 12:14-15,23, Eph 5:5)? Paul: Well sure, but it takes place quickly at the Judgment. Dante: Okay, suppose I grant you that. Now we're only arguing about duration, a mere quantitative rather than qualitative dispute. Why quibble over details? We're not far apart. Paul: Yes, but we don't think that this judgment goes on for thousands of years, with the sufferers losing all hope. Dante: No one knows how long the process will take for any individual. Paul makes no indication. But all these suffering souls know they are saved and will go to heaven eventually. Purgatory is the vestibule to heaven, not hell. You believe we'll be zapped, and I think it'll take a bit longer. But there is agreement that some purging takes place. Paul: Wow! I never thought of it in that way. But if the Bible teaches this, I can't disagree with it. Thanks, Dante! A Fictional Dialogue on Purgatory

Paul the Presbyterian: Hey Dante! What is this nonsense about purgatory [spoken with a grimace] that you Catholics teach? Haven’t you read that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” (2 Cor 5:8)?

Dante the Catholic: First of all, you’re misreading that verse. Paul is saying only that he would rather be present with God in spirit than here in his body. Secondly, your interpretation wouldn’t apply to those who are damned to hell, since they are not “with the Lord.” Thirdly, why would you assume that to be in purgatory is to not be with God?

Paul: Well, I’m impressed. But still, you can’t show me a single verse in the Bible which refers to a state in the afterlife other than heaven or hell.

Dante: Really? I hate to contradict you [smiles], but what about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Lk 16:19-31)? This is the Hebrew Sheol (Greek, Hades) since it includes both good and bad men. Heaven can’t have sinners in it (Rev 21:27) and hell wouldn’t have saved persons in it.

Paul: Ah, but this is just a parable. You can’t construct a doctrine out of a story! You’ll have to do better than that.

Dante: I disagree. Jesus wouldn’t tell a falsehood about spiritual matters, even within a parable. This would be misleading. Besides, we’re told that Christ preached to (apparently damned) “spirits in prison” after His death (1 Pet 3:19-20) and took the righteous dead with Him to heaven (Eph 4:8-10). This indicates a divided Sheol or Hades, with the righteous and the wicked: a third place or state.

Paul: Well . . . alright, you got me on that one. But no one could go to heaven until after Jesus’ Resurrection, and then there were only two destinations after death.

Dante: No: Elijah went straight to heaven (2 Ki 2:11), and most Christians believe the same about Enoch (Gen 5:24). So there were two possibilities for the righteous then: Sheol or heaven, just as there are two today: purgatory or heaven, as Jesus strongly hints (Mt 5:25-26, Lk 12:58-59).

Paul: Okay, but what other verse can you come up with?

Dante: Well, Paul accepts prayers for the dead, which presupposes a purgatory, where dead men can still be assisted.

Paul: Come on! Now you’re really off the deep end. Where?

Dante: In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul refers to people being “baptized for the dead.” And he appears to pray for a dead man, Onesiphorus, in 2 Timothy 1:16-18.

Paul: What do you think he means by “baptisms for the dead?”

Dante: We think he is referring to acts of penance and prayers for the dead. “Baptism” is often a metaphor for suffering (Mk 10:38-39, Lk 3:16, 12:50), and Paul seems to have 2 Maccabees 12:44 in mind - a very similar verse which explicitly teaches the propriety of prayers for the dead.

Paul: But that’s in the Apocrypha. We don’t accept that.

Dante: I know, but if Paul is indeed referring to it, that’s beside the point, and you still have to interpret Paul somehow. But there’s more: Jesus speaks of sins being forgiven in the “world to come” (Mt 12:32), and three levels of judgment (Mt 5:22). These must be references to purgatory. Scripture oftens mentions a “fire” and a purging, cleansing process by which we become holy (Ex 19:18, Is 4:4, 6:7, Mal 3:1-4, 2 Cor 7:1, 1 Thess 4:3,7, 1 Jn 3:2-3, Heb 12:29).

Paul: But why would God want to torment us like that? What’s the point? Why wouldn’t He just forgive us and be done with it, since Jesus already bore all our penalties (Is 53:4-6)?

Dante: God is holy and perfect as well as loving, and this process is simply the way we must enter into His presence. Besides, it’s much more merciful to allow people to be purged of their remaining sins after death as a prelude to heaven, than to condemn them to hell. Whatever the reason, God has revealed purgatory to us in the Bible. Paul talks about the “judgment seat of Christ” (1 Cor 3:11-15, 2 Cor 5:10), where our works will be “tested,” after which some will be saved “only as through fire.” In all essentials, this is precisely what Catholics mean by purgatory. Don’t you believe in the “judgment seat of Christ,” and that holiness is required to see God (Heb 12:14-15,23, Eph 5:5)?

Paul: Well sure, but it takes place quickly at the Judgment.

Dante: Okay, suppose I grant you that. Now we’re only arguing about duration, a mere quantitative rather than qualitative dispute. Why quibble over details? We’re not far apart.

Paul: Yes, but we don’t think that this judgment goes on for thousands of years, with the sufferers losing all hope.

Dante: No one knows how long the process will take for any individual. Paul makes no indication. But all these suffering souls know they are saved and will go to heaven eventually. Purgatory is the vestibule to heaven, not hell. You believe we’ll be zapped, and I think it’ll take a bit longer. But there is agreement that some purging takes place.

Paul: Wow! I never thought of it in that way. But if the Bible teaches this, I can’t disagree with it. Thanks, Dante!

]]> By: Buddy_Le http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9275 Buddy_Le Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9275 Because it is not in the Bible. I tried again and again and never found any verses that support it. Is it possible? Because it is not in the Bible. I tried again and again and never found any verses that support it. Is it possible?

]]> By: Soul of Wit http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9276 Soul of Wit Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9276 Personally, I do not refute the idea of Purgatory. What to refute the Catholic position is your position (as far as Penance), that Christ died for Original Sin, and that all good works, the time in purgatory, indulgences, etc, to atone for all other sins and that Christ gave to all an "original grace" so that we can love God, etc, more easily. We Evangelicals (Lutherans) teach that Christ died as atonement for all sins and that through faith, we receive forgiveness of sins, justification before God almighty Judge, salvation, regeneration, and the Holy Spirit. Catholics look at Table 2 of the Act (the Act, I refer to the Decalogue, not all of the Mosaic Law [most of which does not apply to us Christians]), and therefore looking for justification and salvation. Meanwhile, ignore the Table 1 of the Act. Personally, I do not refute the idea of Purgatory. What to refute the Catholic position is your position (as far as Penance), that Christ died for Original Sin, and that all good works, the time in purgatory, indulgences, etc, to atone for all other sins and that Christ gave to all an "original grace" so that we can love God, etc, more easily. We Evangelicals (Lutherans) teach that Christ died as atonement for all sins and that through faith, we receive forgiveness of sins, justification before God almighty Judge, salvation, regeneration, and the Holy Spirit. Catholics look at Table 2 of the Act (the Act, I refer to the Decalogue, not all of the Mosaic Law [most of which does not apply to us Christians]), and therefore looking for justification and salvation. Meanwhile, ignore the Table 1 of the Act.

]]> By: Lebutzke http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9277 Lebutzke Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9277 I do not see how the suffering, whatever its duration or intensity, I purge my natural desires.   It is paramount to torture.   Putting a person in an oven for 2 years then leave them out. Will they appreciate life more? Probably. There has been a radical change as a person? Probably. Is it still human beings and therefore have all our inhibitions? Definitely.   Moreover, this is not the main reason for disagreement with purgatory. The main reason is the notion that you can buy their way out of it. Regardless of how long ago was that it was the Roman Catholic belief. How can we change the rules and definitions become even take seriously the concept? I do not see how the suffering, whatever its duration or intensity, I purge my natural desires.
  It is paramount to torture.
  Putting a person in an oven for 2 years then leave them out. Will they appreciate life more? Probably. There has been a radical change as a person? Probably. Is it still human beings and therefore have all our inhibitions? Definitely.
  Moreover, this is not the main reason for disagreement with purgatory. The main reason is the notion that you can buy their way out of it. Regardless of how long ago was that it was the Roman Catholic belief. How can we change the rules and definitions become even take seriously the concept?

]]> By: FINGER http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9278 FINGER Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9278 I think that when you die step outside time and space and the "eternal moment." "Everything was going to happen has happened." Christ has come again. The Reckoning has taken place - everything happens at once and you are in your body and there is no glory around waiting in Purgatory. It is our understanding of finite order of the things that makes this seem strange. I think that when you die step outside time and space and the "eternal moment." "Everything was going to happen has happened." Christ has come again. The Reckoning has taken place - everything happens at once and you are in your body and there is no glory around waiting in Purgatory. It is our understanding of finite order of the things that makes this seem strange.

]]> By: Journey http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9279 Journey Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9279 Because the 'idea' of Purgatory has been muddied by the church who refer to non-believers as receiving "eternal life", but in hell and torment.   There is no life eternal reward for evil! Nowhere in the Bible.   If part of the RC with.   Yes, there's trial and blessings and cursings. Where there is life eternal damnation. Eternally dead, yes.   Is the RC church that founded the idea of the immortal soul within every man. That is false. Men have a soul "can die" as the Bible says. "Alma" is only the lives and minds and not to man eternal life (whether in heaven playing a harp, or screaming in hell fire). Because the 'idea' of Purgatory has been muddied by the church who refer to non-believers as receiving "eternal life", but in hell and torment.
  There is no life eternal reward for evil! Nowhere in the Bible.
  If part of the RC with.
  Yes, there's trial and blessings and cursings. Where there is life eternal damnation. Eternally dead, yes.
  Is the RC church that founded the idea of the immortal soul within every man. That is false. Men have a soul "can die" as the Bible says. "Alma" is only the lives and minds and not to man eternal life (whether in heaven playing a harp, or screaming in hell fire).

]]> By: ++ben++ http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9280 ++ben++ Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9280 The problem with purgatory is the premise that we can do * anything * to win the sky (even if sitting for a few years of being cleaned. If we can win a road to heaven in a way, Jesus was not necessary.   Purgatory said, the death of Jesus was not enough, now you have to fufill a lot of obligations and sacramental is to come clean I just doesn't make sense to complete salvation in Jesus, but the simplicity of salvation. With Jesus we didn't have to follow legalisms (Sacramento) I hope that helps a bit! The problem with purgatory is the premise that we can do * anything * to win the sky (even if sitting for a few years of being cleaned. If we can win a road to heaven in a way, Jesus was not necessary.
  Purgatory said, the death of Jesus was not enough, now you have to fufill a lot of obligations and sacramental is to come clean I just doesn't make sense to complete salvation in Jesus, but the simplicity of salvation. With Jesus we didn't have to follow legalisms (Sacramento) I hope that helps a bit!

]]> By: lucid yet fascist http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9281 lucid yet fascist Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9281 I believe Purgatory comes from the idea in some of the teachings of Jesus as the rich man and Lazerus to be comforted in Lazerus Abrahams lap while the rich man was tormented. Purgatory is where people went right after they died, but before that Jesus atoned for our sins. Jesus died after he cleaned the place and taken away to heaven with him. Right now, when people die, they go straight to be with Jesus and Paul taught: "To be absent from the body is being present with the Lord." Before Jesus died, was to be a farm. Do not go to hell, but could not go to heaven or to the atonement of Jesus was complete.   I am not a professional theologin but that is what I can remember from what I heard on the subject, so I hope that helps. I believe Purgatory comes from the idea in some of the teachings of Jesus as the rich man and Lazerus to be comforted in Lazerus Abrahams lap while the rich man was tormented. Purgatory is where people went right after they died, but before that Jesus atoned for our sins. Jesus died after he cleaned the place and taken away to heaven with him. Right now, when people die, they go straight to be with Jesus and Paul taught: "To be absent from the body is being present with the Lord." Before Jesus died, was to be a farm. Do not go to hell, but could not go to heaven or to the atonement of Jesus was complete.
  I am not a professional theologin but that is what I can remember from what I heard on the subject, so I hope that helps.

]]> By: fineDayg http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9282 fineDayg Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9282 Without citing the pages of Scripture - Christ died for our sins, therefore, when we accept Christ we are justified - our sins are forgiven   To quote a passage of Scripture   Romans 8 v 1 ", therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"   If we believe that there is more we must do to be saved then we are limiting what Christ did on the cross.   I know this is a conflict that will continue to go between Catholics and Protestants - to accept that this is how we see Without citing the pages of Scripture - Christ died for our sins, therefore, when we accept Christ we are justified - our sins are forgiven
  To quote a passage of Scripture
  Romans 8 v 1 ", therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"
  If we believe that there is more we must do to be saved then we are limiting what Christ did on the cross.
  I know this is a conflict that will continue to go between Catholics and Protestants - to accept that this is how we see

]]> By: much2muc http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/comment-page-1/#comment-9283 much2muc Fri, 08 May 2009 09:16:15 +0000 http://www.romancatholicresources.com/2009/05/or-the-non-catholic-christian-protestant-why-refute-the-idea-of-purgatory-when/#comment-9283 Persons other than Catholics refute Purgatory because there is no evidence that Christ referred to him during his ministry on Earth.   It is completely composed. It is a fairy tale.   Perhaps Christ forgot to mention this basic tenet. It was shortly after a God, He was? Persons other than Catholics refute Purgatory because there is no evidence that Christ referred to him during his ministry on Earth.
  It is completely composed. It is a fairy tale.
  Perhaps Christ forgot to mention this basic tenet. It was shortly after a God, He was?

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