Question about Catholics and Protestants.
I'm at a crossroads. I can see the logic of the Catholic communion would be the right way (transubstantiation) and I can see in the story of Jesus and his followers started the first church.
This is probobly the current Catholic Church.
But I have a problem with the rejection of grace itself. Its clear in the Bible that salvation is a gift, apart from the works so no man can boast "We like to take what is meant is that you can not do anything to win, is a gift from God.
that makes me question all the things purgatory.
I need answers about this and that is where in the Bible.
If you ask that question only shows how ignorant of writing that is. Can prove both points of view using the Bible.
The only question is about the story and how it supports this view.
Therefore, if law is not entirely the truth found in the center.
- Catholics: Purgatory Question (Please Read the whole question)?
- I have a question about Purgatory?
- According to Protestants, Catholics go to hell?
- Question for Catholics and Protestants on the (Catholic) Bible?
- Catholics … Tell me what you think about this? This is a legitimate question, I really like to know?
If transubstantiation makes sense to you and you can see that the Catholic Church is the Church that the early Christians began, then, that is sufficient for your response.
If you can use Scripture to prove both sides of issues, and then based on the above, you'll have to go with the Catholic interpretation.
Come Home.
Feel free to email me with any questions about Catholicism. I will do everything possible to respond.
Purgatory is part of God's grace and mercy. God gives his grace freely, but we can choose the climate that cooporate with him or not. Jesus' death guarantees that we can reach heaven, but this does not mean that each person lives his life in such a way that will win the sky. If so, then why not do away with the 10 Commandments from all going to heaven no matter what we do. Does not work that way. Because God is merciful soo gives us one last chance to save our souls in purgatory. If not completely pure to enter heaven, but not yet deserve to be in hell, purgatory, then serves as a purification process that guarantees our entrance into heaven time. None of this would be possible without the death and resurrection of Jesus, in other words, the grace of God.
In short .. God's grace is free, Jesus died for everyone, but we are still able to choose whether we will cooperate with this and enjoy what Jesus has won for us all.
First, the two really are not that different. Both Catholics and Protestants believe that salvation is a gift from God, not anything that can be perceived by humanity. Right, we know. Protestants say that you must have faith in God and proclaim Jesus as Lord, and thou shalt be saved. Now, if you really have faith in God and believe that Jesus is Lord, then you will keep His commandments. Going to do good works. If you say you have faith and you say that Jesus is Lord, but can not be bothered to do good works, then this is an indication that his convictions were not deep or true. You do not care. Thus, faith and works always go together.
However, you may request historical data in support of faith and works "doctrine, so let's see what it is.
- In 1527, the Diet of Worms condemns the doctrine that good works are not necessary for salvation.
- St. Augustine said: "I praise the fruit of good works, but I discern its root in faith." (Salt Enarr .. XXXI, PL, IV, 259).
- Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-496): "I will bring the injustice to me as closer to the kingdom of heaven, and expect an independent and impartial tribunal, where there is no tax, no lawyer, nor witness, or distinction in rank, but the sentence of facts and words and fair. "To", it says, "we must all appear before the tribunal of Christ that each one may receive the things done in his body according to whether he has to be good or bad" (Letter To XCI the Prefect Euthrechius).
- San Juan Chrysostum "Verse 6" For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love. "What is the meaning of" working by love? "This gives them a blow by showing that this error has crept in because the love of Christ was not rooted in them. For not believing everything that is needed, but also to meet in love. "(Commentary on Galatians 5, NPNF1: Volume 13, page 37).
- Clement of Rome: "Let's break, then those to whom grace has been given by God. We will clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far away from all the whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our deeds, not words " ;.
- Ignacio: "I know you like the soldiers they are, and where you receive remuneration. May none of you are being a deserter. Let your baptism be your arms, your faith, your helmet, your love for your spear, your resistance to their full suit of armor. Let your works be deposited as deductions, so you can get the back pay that has accrued to you "(Letter to Polycarp)
- Justin Martyr: "Every man is going to eternal salvation or punishment depending on the value of their shares." (1st Apology of Justin)
- Cipriano: "So who are the rich and the rich, for you to buy gold tried in the fire of Christ that can be pure gold, with their garbage as if burned by fire, are purged if the almsgiving and righteous works. "(Treaty 8, A.D. 253)
- Basil: "Eternal rest awaits those who have struggled through life aware of the laws, not as a payment due of his works, but given as a gift from God in the munificence of those who wait on him. "
- Ambrose: "However, the Scriptures say that eternal life is based on the knowledge of things divine and the fruit of good works." (Duties of the Clergy)
- Jerome, "In vain we do in our account with him, whose orders have not."
Fathers of the Church has always defended the idea that good works are necessary for salvation. The theology of "faith alone" did not exist until the 16th century.
Good Works in sanctifying grace necessary for salvation
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezekiel. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Os. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11, Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ to attain salvation that God desires for us through perseverance in faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, I think only one has to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior to be saved and good works are not necessary (only the flow of those who are already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.
Lord. 35:19, Luke 23:41, John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and "unsaved."
1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for the salvation of many Protestants believe, why a man is saved (not just reward) by the fires through a ruling of her works?
Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged only by faith, but in reality the way we judge others, and we've given. Therefore, they are judged according to how we responded to God's grace in our lives.
Matt. 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must persevere to the end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation came at a time when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, there would be no need persevere to the end. We would have been saved.
Matt. 16:27 - Jesus says that every man will pay for what he has done (works).
Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of sheep from the goats based on the works that were performed during his lifetime, not only on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this shows that education, even those who are ultimately saved, do not necessarily have to know Christ. Furthermore, we do not accept Christ, He accepts us. God makes the decision to accept before he could accept.
Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "What did one of my brethren, you did it to me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined by our works.
Mark 10:21 - Jesus said sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends on our works.
Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act in accordance with the will of the Lord. We are judged on the basis of what we do, then not only what we know.
Luke 14:14 - Jesus said that he paid for the work we have done in the resurrection of the righteous. Our work to achieve salvation.
Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief, the thief did not even do anything good deeds. However, the good thief, in fact do a good job, which was rebuking the evil thief as he and others were reviling Jesus. It was a "job" which justified the good thief before Jesus and won his favor. Furthermore, we do not know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, that works of charity and penance, and was reconciled with God before he was crucified.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how to cooperate with the grace of God.
2 Cor. 5:10 - in the court of Christ, which are judged according to what we have done in the body, how we did not have much faith.
2 Cor. 9:6 - Paul says that he who sows sparingly take too little, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with the trial of God.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end is our actions. Our works are necessary for our justification and salvation.
Gal. 6:7-9 - whatever a man sows, you will get. Paul warns the Galatians not grow weary in doing good deeds for in due season reap (the rewards of eternal life).
Eph. 6:8 - which is good to anyone, will receive the same from the Lord.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive the payment due in accordance with what we did. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift of God by His infinite mercy.
1 Tim. 6:18-19 - the rich will be rich in good works so they can take hold of life that is life indeed, that is, eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:14 - Paul Alexander copper did great damage, and Paul says the Lord for his REQUIREMENTS facts.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not as unjust as to overlook your work and love they showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires selflessness and charity works, and does not occur simply by a profession of faith.
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in the implementation of the grace of Jesus won for us on Calvary in our daily lives.
Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians that they have fallen in love we used to have, and orders that do good works. Not satisfied with his faith alone. They have to do more than accept the man as Lord and Savior.
Rev. 2:10 - Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful until death, and He will give you the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.
Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of Thyatirans and despises its tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.
Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us to give each of us as our deeds deserve. He crowns His gifts reward for our good deeds.
Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says that wins and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Thus, Jesus teaches us to keep their jobs until the end. This is not necessary if "once saved, always saved."
Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 - Jesus is judging our works from the sky, and these works affect our eternal salvation. If the conquest of sin through faith and works, will not stain our name in the book of life. This means that the work would affect our salvation. Our "works" not only deal with level of reward you receive, but if in fact he was saved.
Rev. 3:15 - Jesus says, "I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth. "Jesus is condemned indifference, which is often based on our works.
Rev. 14:13 - which are judged by the Lord by our works - "for their works follow them" Our faith in our life is complete and judged by our works.
Rev. 20:12 - "the dead are judged by what was written in the books, so they had done."
Rev. 22:12 - Jesus said, "Behold, I come quickly, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done."
Sir 16:12,14 - which are judged according to our works, and receive according to our works.
After a state of death and suffering of forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - Jesus teaches us: "Come to terms with your opponent or you will be given to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not leave until you have paid the last penny. "The word" rival "(antidiko) is probably a reference to the devil (see the same word for the devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) which is an accuser against man (see Job 1.6-12; Zac. 3.1 ; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, to be held in a temporary state called a prison, and not leave until they have fulfilled all our debt to God. This "prison" is purgatory where not leave until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are just a perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 - Jesus says, "And whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this world or the next." Jesus therefore, clearly states that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase "the next" (from the Greek "to mellonti") generally refers to the other (see, for example, Mark 10.30, Luke 18.30; 20,34-35; Eph. 1.21 to similar wording). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This demonstrates that there is another state after death, and the Church of 2000 years this state has called Purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there is no shock, and hell no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of their place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God in Hell and those who are deprived of the grace of God for all eternity. Where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptized in the name of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized in the name of the dead so the dead can be raised). They can not be in heaven because they are still with sin, but can not be in hell because their sins can not be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so they can be forgiven their sins.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven on earth, and under the earth, "which is the kingdom of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Paul is dead Onesiphorus but calls for mercy on him that day. "Paul's use of" that day "demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, eg, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8, 3.13, 5.5, 2 Cor. 1.14, Phil. 1.6,10, 2.16, 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8, 2 Thess. 2.2,3, 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs in our lifetime and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. Not necessarily arrive perfect. It makes perfect after his death. But those are already in heaven is perfect, and those in hell can not be perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19, 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in "prison". These are the souls of the righteous to be purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God wipe away their tears, and no grief or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the death of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of the tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God does not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls suffer purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word "dirty" comes from the Greek word "koinon" which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean and must be purified before entering heaven. It is surprising how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of God's mercy. If there is no purgatory, this also means you can not salvation for most people. In fact, God is merciful.
Luke 23:43 - many Protestants argue that since Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, no purgatory. There are several replicas. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise" that does not mean the sky. Paradise, the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but that is captive to the Lord's resurrection. Secondly, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus' statement "I say to you today will be with me in paradise" does not mean that there was a comma after the first word "you". This means that Jesus could have said, "I say to you today, that will be with me in paradise" (ie, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was "today" or "now" and that sometime in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Thirdly, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life - perhaps by a bloody and repentant death - could be ready for admission into the sky).
Gen. 50:10, Num. 20:29, Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices is the prayer that frees the souls of her painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are superfluous and unnecessary in heaven in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zac. 9:11 - God, through the blood of his covenant, shall be set free from the water pool, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and who in the hell can not be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the old teaching of purgatory. As a result, took charge of the Maccabees in the Bible.
After the death of purification by fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in the sky, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).
1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works have been lost, but the person is still saved. Paul refers to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned after death, but the person is brought to salvation. This state after death can not be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 - "If any man's work burn, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire." The phrase "suffer loss" in Greek is "zemiothesetai" ;. The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction zemiothesetai "is used in the former. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew "Anash" which means "punish" or "penalty"). Therefore, this verse shows that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This can not mean the sky (there is no punishment in heaven) and this can not mean hell (the possibility of sin no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 - In addition, Paul writes "he himself will be saved," but only "(or" so ") and the fire." "He will be saved" in Greek is "sothesetai" (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or "tan") in Greek is "hout", meaning "the same way." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved from the same way by the fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification refers to his sins (not only their good deeds). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was writing only about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing a man and purification of sins would be admitting that there a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death about punishing sin. That is, destroy the temple of God is a bad job, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of the law (v.14), state of venial sin (V.15) and the state of mortal sin (V.17), all which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched from the flames. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as it refines the gold that loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death, because Jesus, who spoke from the sky, gives the white dress of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many purified themselves are white and refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sir 2:5 - for gold is tested in fire, and acceptable for men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zac. 13:8-9 - God says 2 / 3 will perish, and 1 / 3 was left alive, into the fire, and refined as silver and tested like gold. Those who die go to hell, and there is need for improvement in the sky, so it is being refined in purgatory.
Mal. 3:2-3 - God also refers to the purification of the righteous in their death.
We invite you to my thoughts. I am a lifelong Catholic, but I must stress that I am not a priest or a theologian.
When you say that Catholics who reject the faith alone, I do not think this is correct. We do not believe we can win our way to heaven. We believe that God / Jesus have to set up rules and follow them. And I think we should go to church on Sunday. And I think we should go to confession and so on down the couch without believing is not enough.
Purgatory is an odd duck, and is commonly misunderstood. It is a place of purification before entering heaven. Catholics we believe that the Bible is, as you said not Protestants. My personal feeling is that purgatory is incompatible with the Catholic idea of reconciliation and forgiveness of sins. My wife is an aunt was a nun and Catholic religious education for over fifty years. I asked this question and tells me I'm just not thinking correctly. Not exactly my mind to stop working the way it does. She said the church has de-emphasized the years of purgatory. BTW limbo and purgatory are two different things, but that is a totally different conversation.
I do not think that in the purgatory between heaven and hell, but that is between the earth and sky.
I agree with you that anyone can take a verse or two out of context and prove almost anything.
The teaching of the Catholic faith in morality and faith of Christ himself is protected by the Holy Spirit. This teaching is the teaching office of the magisterial office
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26, 10:10, 1 Peter 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but participation in the implementation of the redemption by the way we live.
Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, the redemption, but is not the same as salvation. We participate in the hope and salvation. Our hope for salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ until the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, for our own choice (for God is not doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved", a new theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Purgatory is where souls are cleansed of whether the effects of sin before they can see the holy face of Almighty God. Revelation 21:27 tells us that "… nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]. "
Daniel 12:2, Matthew 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, 2 Timothy 1:16-18, Hebrews 12:14, Hebrews 12:22-23, 1 Peter 4:6 and Revelation 21:10, 27 all speak of Purgatory in their telling of the need of purification, prayer for the dead, the preaching of Christ to the dead, or how nothing unclean will see God.
Even Talmud1 Speaking of Purgatory:
Saturday 33b:
"The trial of the wicked in purgatory is twelve months."
Rosh Hashanah 16b-17a:
"It has taught the school of Shammai says:" There will be three groups on the Day of Reckoning (Yom haDin):
(1) which is an entirely fair
(2) that is completely evil,
(3) and one that is in the middle. "
Jews, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and have always proclaimed the reality of the end of purification for those who need it. It was not until the Protestant Reformation came in 1500 that any denial of the Christian idea of a final purgation before seeing the face of God.
There are Protestants who believe in Purgatory. One that was very explicit in this regard was CS Lewis. In his "Letters to Malcolm."
But beyond the protesters as Lewis, who openly admit their belief in purgatory, we can say that Protestants generally believe in Purgatory, who simply do not call it that.
For every historic Protestant admit our sins in this life will not continue in heaven. In fact, they will be quite insistent that, although our sanctification is not complete in this life, to be completed as soon as this life is over.
But this is what purgatory! - The Sanctification final purification. Therefore, it is permissible to say that many Protestants believe in purgatory without even realizing it.
Since converting to Catholicism 16 years ago, I still have conversations with my sister (not a Protestant denomination) on topics like this.
Attempt to explain that the Church teaches, not just by looking at the Scripture, but in history and by reading what the earliest Christians have written with Scripture and tradition.
Moreover, to believe that the Bible is our sole source of Christian truth is unbiblical and illogical.
All revealed truth is in "66 books" is not only in Scripture, is contradicted by the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Peter 1:20-21, 2 Peter 3:16).
I hope this helps
I have to agree with Genghis. If you agree that the Church is Christ founded the Catholic Church, then agreed that she did not teach error since it was promised that the gates of hell shall never prevail against it (Matthew 16:18) and that the Church would bring all truth (John 16:13). Therefore, the Church can not teach doctrinal error.
God bless
Robin
You can not test the purgatory of the Bible. Is not there. And the fact you want to dismiss the Bible as the final authority, shows that you're not a Christian.
Catholics are not saved Christians. Jesus started his church, which is composed of believers, the Bible says. Do not start the Catholic religion.
No, the Catholic Church is not the Biblical Church. It is very "historical", but not really biblical.
Read the book of Acts in the Bible, comparing it to the churches, and find those who preach and teach what they started in the book of Acts (Acts of the Apostles and Actions). This is the original apostolic church.
Historically, the Catholic Church does not begin until some time after 'the apostles. Do what the Bible says to do and stop standing on the fence.
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